The Monster and the Man

Such a refreshing point of view in this story! Sadly, this is very relate-able to me… having been the asshole boyfriend on many an occasion. Like.. the fears and insecurities come out as overbearing and awful and its hard to take a step back and see yourself being out of control and ridiculous in the moment. god. This story took balls.. figuratively and literally.. in order to fulfill the horrible monster-like man half of these types of stories.

Hi- what was the music playing in the background when he was talking about their first date? I recognize it from somewhere and can’t put my finger on it. Thanks so much.

Wow. I will always maintain that the best stories are often the ones we least want to tell. Thank you, Larry (wolfman?) for sharing the pain, heartbreak, and change in direction that your life has taken. It was a difficult story to hear at points, but man was it powerful. Few people prone to rage get to have the gift of self-awareness.
Without it, there is no hope for redemption. May you continue down the lighted path. Also, great job editing, Jeff! I continue to be impressed by Risk’s content and its staff.

Think* shys* autocorrect dammit

JT, this is Melanie Hamlett. Just wanted to chime in on this. I totally get what you are saying and why you feel that way. I did too. I listened to this story six times during its creation and it never got any easier. I originally believed the words and the way they were said should be toned way down. There were many discussions about this very topic! But I eventually came around and saw why Kevin thought it was important it be told this way. When we think of abuse, we usually think of bruises. Without the physical violence, people don’t often take abuse seriously. Or understand it. So the creative choice to make the words feel like punches (and thus make verbal abuse feel very real) was done intentionally. It sent chills down my spine EVERY single time I listened to it. But that was the point. To make us feel it. This is why Kevin put such a heavy trigger warning up top. He knew how it made me feel when i heard it and was concerned others might have as hard of a time with those verbal punches. Especially anyone who’s been abused. Risk doesn’t like to tell stories form a distance like other storytelling platforms, which is what makes it so unique. It wants us to be right there, in the moment, as uncomfortable as that is. So ultimately I came around and saw the need for those stinging words. I’m not sure if this makes you feel any better, but I wanted you to know we all thought about this a lot and totally get why you reacted this way. Also, “Larry” (I can’t believe that’s the name they went with lol) is a life long theater actor. So he was able to put himself in the moment and embody his old self in a more convincing way than the typical person would be able to.

Listening to this man wallow in his own self pity for an entire hour was almost too enraging to handle. The thought of all the kudos this abuser will undoubtedly receive for his “courage” to speak out about his abusive tendencies disturbs me. Despite the storyteller’s relentless insistence that he, ‘owns his actions and takes full responsibility for the pain he caused,’ the tale came off as an hour-long excuse. Being Bi-polar does not make one an abuser. Moving around as child does not make one an abuser. Having divorced parents does not make one an abuser. Making the decision to get drunk and verbally assault your significant other makes you an abuser. He spent nine years controlling another human through fear, congratulations. As a women who managed to escape an abusive relationship, I cannot bear to think of that man being given a platform to to relieve himself of guilt. I understand the importance of perspective, though I find it hard to listen to stories spinning sympathy for abusive people. Everyone has a back story. There are many reasons people commit crimes, hurt or abuse another person. How simple is it to for an abuser tell us about his or her childhood or depression and draw those lines as excuses for their actions. I don’t buy it, what about the power he gained screaming at his wife, using jealousy to control her actions, using his anger to block out the conversations he didn’t want to have. Ugh, I can’t with men.

After a hesitation, I decided to share my opinion on what I just listened to. It is possible that my opinion might provoke an unwarranted reaction of many listeners to the show, but this is certainly not my intention, nor my desire. I just want to express a disappointment.

The beginning of the Wolfman’s story (I suspect the narrator for shielding his real name with a semantically charged artistic nom de guerre, using the name of an artist who played the wolfman long ago, so I will refer to him as the Wolfman) was promising and catchy. As the story went on, however, I began to wonder how much of it is ‘the real thing’ and how much is the unnecessary dramatization (read ‘over-dramatization’). The self-loathing “I am that monster” itself is suspicious for a variety of reasons, but mainly because the pathology of evil-doing requires a healthy dose self-loving and egocentrism, which the narrator obviously doesn’t express, and I suspect he doesn’t have. In that case, it would be much fairer to the listeners to state that “I am that HALF monster”, the one that has repented, and the one that feels remorse, etc. etc.

Next, listening to the story itself, I fail to grasp the entirety of his monstrosity. First, it must have not come out all of the sudden. Where was his gf/wife during all that time? She is portrayed as an involuntary bi-stander in his monstrous abusing, but I wonder how much that is true. She had a part into all this–a big one, too–but where is the recognition of it? Well, the simple answer is that were the Wolfman given us *her* part of the story, his own story would not sound so ‘self-flagellating’ anymore, would it? But he wants us to give him our kudos and recognition, almost admiration that he has the strength to come out and face his inner Frankenstein.

This was, indeed, the main source of my disappointment with the story and the narrator (and, yes, with you guys – Kevin, Melanie, etc.) – forcing an overdramatized version of a story, which white thread coterie is plainly visible all over, as an honest pursuit of the truth. RISK, in my mind, was a program, where one not just takes the risk of exposing oneself to the public, but also to do so while remaining as truthful as possible to the unfiltered and rough experience of the story. I recognize that the majority of the stories need some basic polishing, and arrangement. But, this one was close to being concocted all together. Not to mention the pathetical musical arrangement in the background intended to sway our emotions, as we were hearing from this actor, his dramatization of a story that could have been as true as a speech from Hamlet.

And, for that reason it sounded very false. Sorry, no offense intended.

Finally, I listened to sections of the story again, trying to figure out the actual ‘abuse’ part. However, the more I listened to it, the more I saw an abused man more than an abuser. One, suffering from loneliness, insecurity, depression, etc., who has been left out in the cold. His beautiful wife, who by then is quite estranged from him, allows a stranger to flirt with her for way too long in front of her husband. Is that not a form of abuse? She clearly knew exactly what she was doing and she knew how to push the Wolfman’s buttons to drive him into a rage. And she did it. His rage seems to be an expression of his reaction to her abuse, not so much an abuse itself. Him, yelling at her offenses in this situation, is a manifestation of powerlessness and desperation.

I don’t judge him or her. In a relationship (when it lasts for so long as it did, mind you), there are always two sides. I judge the story and the editor, however. The story sounds to me as real as the name of the narrator itself (a famous actor, playing a monster).

At the end we are left with a dilemma to applaud the Wolfman, to condemn him, or to pity him. His story asks us to do the former, while it provokes some (see Carla above) to do the latter; the narrator himself opts for the third option (in his case, a self-pity). I opt for none of the options, as I hardly see the abuse in this case as a one-directional, or the repentance as sincere. And, I hate to pity, let alone to chime into self-pitying over-dramatizations.

Not your brightest story, RISK!

P.S. I commented before in this forum using this nom de plume so I keep it now just for the sake of consistency.

Carla you have expressed my feelings on this perfectly. I could not agree more as a survivor the thought of my abuser taking to a platform like this to self flagellate and come up with a list of excuses for what he chose to do makes me incredibly angry. Domestic abusers are able to control themselves at work, around friends, hear how many wonderful friends were at their wedding but choose their partner as the outlet. That’s not pathological.

Thank you, Carla and Lorelei, for explaining why this story is so distasteful to survivors of abuse. I’d like to share my own thoughts as a domestic abuse survivor.

Abuse is not the result of emotional problems, mental illness, childhood stress, etc. etc. Abuse stems from an attitude of entitlement. It is about taking control, not losing control. And every single fucking abuser out there either denies the abuse, blames the victim for it, or blame life circumstances (mental illness, drinking, parents, blah blah blah).

Like so many abusers, this storyteller hasn’t taken full responsibility for what he did. And his motivation to tell his story — that he listened to Melanie’s story and was touched by the compassion she felt for her abuser — made me sick to my stomach. Hers was a downright harrowing story and THAT was his takeaway? Fuck him. The fact that he feels as entitled to tell his story as a person who actually survived abuse is gross — and very telling.

Previous commenters say things like, ‘We’ve all heard victims tell their stories before’ – but really, we haven’t. Not really. On a societal level, survivors are silenced CONSTANTLY. And we hear from abusers of constantly. Think of the athletes who batter their wives and girlfriends, and continue their careers. The celebrities who continue making movies or reality shows after being overtly abuse ON CAMERA. Think of the government leaders who abuse entire populations of people (especially Trump). These abusers, usually men, have plenty of folks listening. It’s survivors who need a platform for telling their stories.

For the love of good, save the airtime for survivors and not attention-seeking, self-congratulatory abusers.

Risk is still my favourite show, but I am deeply disappointed by the decision to air this story.

P.S. @Oracle of Delphi – Quit it with the victim-blaming bullshit.

I suspect much was left out of this story… I lived in an abusive relationship for over 5 years and though much of what was expressed seems real and valid, I felt much of this was held back or whitewashed…. calling someone a cunt is not in my mind abusive like convincing someone of their worthlessness and assuring them that no one but the abuser could see their value as a human being… What are the “horrible things” you supposedly did to be a monster? Were you physical? …did you isolate her? …make her question her value as a human being? When my ex beat me or raped me he would say “you’re ok…I just manhandled you a little…”. I suspect if you describe her shutting down during an escalation of abuse, she had seen more than just being called a cunt… I’m not calling you out- just giving you food for thought…

Thanks for responding, Kevin. I have no doubt that you and the RISK! team had good intentions. It’s clear that you approached this thoughtfully.

And I know you folks have run lots of stories about domestic abuse (and other kinds of abuse). It’s one of the reasons I love the show so much.

There’s a lot of ignorance in our society about what abuse looks like and how it is perpetuated (which is why it is so prevalent). It’s a thorny subject. And I can’t expect you folks to become overnight experts in every single topic you run a story about.

But…I still had to weigh in on this one. It really didn’t sit well with me.

Thanks for explaining your motivation/process to those of us who took issue with the episode.

I previously commented about this episode in comments 10, 12, and 20. Hopefully, I’m not getting repetitive about some stuff.

I kept the intro to this story in the podcast episode itself pretty short, but perhaps I should have told the full story of how this episode came to be. “Larry” reached out to Melanie after he heard her story, “Unbreakable.” He just wanted her to know that he had worked for years in therapy to break the cycle of abuse and that he wanted her to know he believed it could be done and he believed he was living proof. Not many abusive people do the hard work of therapy. It’s similar to how, about a century ago, the general consensus in society was that a person with a drinking problem was a lost cause. Thus, at that time, very few people with drinking problems believed they could do anything about it at all.

Melanie got to know “Larry.” She came to feel he was entirely sincere about his transformation. She urged him to share his story. He did not want to. He decided against it. He was afraid it could come off as de-emphasizing the importance of hearing victims’ points of view; that people might think he was trying to justify or excuse his past sins; that it might seem he was fishing for a pat on the back even though he would be telling the story anonymously; and that re-creating the sound of the abuse might remind victims too much of their past trauma. Melanie kept urging him to share the story anyway. The feeling was, yeah, a lot of those concerns about how the story might come off might just be unavoidable because this is a story about truly horrible behavior. But the overall message that the cycle can be broken is too important to stay quiet about it. So “Larry” was finally convinced to give it a try. When the two of them finally came to me, we talked about all those concerns. I more or less said, “As long as you try to be as open and honest as you possibly can be about your real life experience and your actual thoughts and feelings about what you really lived through, that’s the best you can do. Let’s dig into the mess.” I urged him to run first drafts by Melanie and to do the recording sessions with another woman (rather than with me) who he trusted would give him honest feedback as well.

When the first draft of the story came my way, I could see that what Melanie and “Larry” were hoping to communicate WAS there in the story. The idea that someone guilty of abuse might not MERELY be a monster and that, in some cases, real change for the better is possible is, I feel, emotionally and sincerely expressed in the story.

Many victims of abuse and even some who admit to having been abusive before have reached out to me privately to say the story was important for them to hear. But in public, there’s more of a pile-on of negative reactions. In this comment thread here, people have suggested that surely “Larry” is lying by omitting that he also physically abused his wife and kept her from her friends and family, that surely “Larry” is preemptively covering up for the fact that he will soon be abusing people again, and that, surely “Larry” is lying about caring about understanding the issues he’s describing. I can’t really respond to interpretations that show that much distrust for the story at face value. We’re glad that, even if this story really rubs some people the wrong way, most people still seem to trust that we’re always trying to include stories that have conscience and compassion in them.

There’s a slightly more communal conversation about this story happening on the Facebook group “RISK! Podcast Fans Discussion Group.” I think maybe that format gives people more impetus for interacting with a back and forth exchange of ideas and feelings.

No, Oracle of Delphi, it is not abuse when you “let” a stranger flirt with you for “too long”. I don’t know what your life experience is, but when a stranger flirts with a woman, we are always told we react too quickly, or not quickly enough. If we let it go on for too long, then we are accused of being a “tease,” but if we react too soon, we are “overreacting” and “making assumptions” about the person’s intentions when they were “just being friendly.” I’ve been called nasty names because I ignored men who tried to talk to me. I’ve had a man scream at me, “I’M NOT A RAPIST!” because I walked away from him. There really is no right way to respond to this.

I just listened to this episode. I have been in an abusive relationship. I have also been the abuser in relationships. If you want to end abuse, you can’t just treat the person who has been abused. If we learn how treat the abuser, that abuser won’t take their abusive tenancies into another relationship. Attacking someone for being an abuser is just going to drive them back into an abusive mindset. Punishing and judging an abuser will not help anyone. We are here on earth together, let’s offer each other some genuine help. Larry, thank you for sharing your story. I am glad you have achieved enough self awareness to improve your mental health. Keep going to therapy. Keep being honest with yourself and keep on getting better. I also have bipolar disorder. It’s no fun to run the mental health gauntlet. But if you keep going; you will find the right meds, therapist and psychiatrist. It is a long and difficult processes but you can keep that monster under control.

Just thought I’d share my experiences, in responses to the folks chiming in that this story is a load of crap because abusers can’t possibly change, etc…and to thank Larry for sharing. I’m guessing that people who condemn people who demonstrate out-of-control behavior have never closely experienced mental illness, or ever suffered from it themselves.

I was the victim in an abusive relationship. My husband progressively began demonstrating symptoms of bipolar disorder, eventually including mania, grandiose behavior, and fits of rage. Larry’s description of his behavior was chilling- it was exactly like my husband. My husband was severely neglected as a child and in many ways was a boy trapped in a man’s body- he was fearful of emotions (which would prove to be the biggest obstacle in his getting help for his mental health), and lacked the general impulse control that comes with adult guidance- as simple as, “think before you speak.” I fully believe his lack of emotional development contributed largely to his issues and abusive patterns- he was very much, very visibly, at war with himself. The shame for things he had said and done only fueled the defensive, child-like anger that manifested in a much larger scale due to the emotions and responsibilities of adulthood.

I eventually left my husband after he refused to seek treatment, I’m guessing out of a combination of pride, shame, and fear. I applaud Larry’s courage and humility- admitting that you have done horrible things and having the guts to delve deep inside and figure out what the driving factors behind those behaviors were is commendable, and I will definitely say that there is a strong stigma associated with mental illness for men in particular that all too often contributes to situations like this. My husband terrified me, damaged my self-esteem, hurt me profoundly… but after years of therapy myself I do not think he is a bad person. Larry’s story gave me a sense of hope that maybe some day he’ll find his own courage to get help, and maybe eventually find peace and happiness.

ps @Caitlin – well put!

Well, @cc, if my gf or wife flirts in front of me for too long, knowing well that this is a bridge of our trust or confidence, I will feel pretty shitty. Yeah, sure, this is not abuse… It is a “tease”. And, DJ Trump is a gentleman, who just happened to enjoy the aestetics of female beauty!

Did anyone managed to pass my comment about whether the abuse of the narrator has been going two ways, and ponder on the argument, which in my opinion is the more valid, about the actual sincerity of the story, and its commercialization moment?

Like the story or not, Love it or hate it… It’s perspective and it’s very interesting. And if his story relates to and helps just one person, opens their eye’s and helps them turn their life around it was worth it. I hope it does. I’d think we can all understand a story better when we hear both sides. It’s important. I’d be very interested in hearing a serial killers perspective or someone who shot a bunch of their school mates or anyone who did something that I’m not able to understand. Like WHY or HOW could someone do these things. More often than not we don’t get the opportunity to hear that so it was really interesting getting to hear his story.